It's 10:24 pm ...
I'm wrapping up the last paper for my theology class ... It's about the second coming of Christ and the millennium and the rapture ...
so, what's up with the rapture? ... I'm not a fan of popular rapture theology ... that Jesus comes back and takes us Christians away and everyone else is left to wander the earth ... I don't buy it ... and most of the Scriptures used to argue that 'left behind' rapture theology are taken out of context ...
Yes, Jesus returns ... Yes, I do believe Jesus is coming back and when He comes back, He will throw Satan and his demons into the lake of fire, He will judge the living and the dead, He will reward the righteous, and ultimately, the new heaven comes down upon the new earth, where we live with God on the new earth forever ... Yes, we will be resurrected and given new sexy glorious bodies ...
Yes, we will see Jesus face to face ... no more tears and no more pain and no more death and no more dirty diapers ... but I'm not sure what we mean by rapture? ... if Jesus is bringing the new heaven on the new earth in every way possible, then where are we being raptured to? ...
Anyone want to help me out? ... let's get some rapture discussion ... bring it!
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17 comments:
no rapture.
that crap eschatology has ruined modern society. the "i'm outta here" mentality makes people either have no children, take no care in raising them, spend their money like it grows on trees, abandon tradition and historic confessionalism.
renewed and perfected earth and bodies. none of this spirit-only heaven. how can we eat the lamb's high feast with no body?
oh, and one more point. that terrible eschatology has also led our country down a really horrible middle east foreign policy path. really horrible.
chew on this:
1. We believe that Jesus, true God and true man, who rose from death and
ascended to the right hand of the Father, will come again. He will return visibly, in
the same way as his disciples saw him go into heaven (Acts 1:11).
2. We believe that no one can know the exact time of Jesus’ return. This
knowledge is hidden even from the angels in heaven (Matthew 24:36).
Nevertheless, our Lord has given signs to his believers to keep them in constant
expectation of his return (Matthew 24:4-14). He has told them to be alert and to
watch so that day will not come upon them unexpectedly (Luke 21:34).
3. We believe that at Jesus’ return this present world will come to an end. “In
keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth,
the home of righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).
4. We believe that when Jesus returns and his voice is heard throughout the
earth, all the dead will rise, that is, their souls will be reunited with their bodies
(John 5:28,29). Together with those still living, the resurrected will appear before
his throne of judgment. The unbelievers will be condemned to an eternity in hell.
Those who by faith have been cleansed in the blood of Christ will be glorified and
will live with Jesus forever in the blessed presence of God in heaven (Philippians
3:21).
5. We reject the teaching that Christ will reign on earth for a thousand years in
a physical, earthly kingdom. This teaching (millennialism) has no valid scriptural
basis and falsely leads Christians to set their hopes upon an earthly kingdom of
Christ (John 18:36). We reject as unscriptural any claim that Christians will be
physically removed, or “raptured,” from the earth prior to judgment day. We
likewise reject as unscriptural any claim that all the Jews will be converted in the
final days.
6. We reject the teaching that Christians should look for one individual to arise
in the end times as the great Antichrist. The characteristics of the Antichrist as
presented in Scripture have been and are being fulfilled in the institution of the
papacy (2 Thessalonians 2:4-10). We reject the opinion that the identification of
23
the papacy with the Antichrist was merely a historical judgment valid only at the
time of the Reformation.
7. We reject any denial of a bodily resurrection and of the reality and eternity
of hell. We reject the teaching that the souls of people who have died return to
earth in other bodies (reincarnation) (Hebrews 9:27).
8. We reject all attempts to interpret the New Testament descriptions of Jesus’
second coming, of the end of the world, and of the judgment as mere figures of
speech for events that take place not at the end of time but within the ongoing
history of the world.
i don't go to a lutheran church but those wisconsin synod guys sure do know how to drop bombs :)
Those Raptured:
Enoch
Methuselah
Elijah
Jesus
-Paul
-John
Only Paul is the one raptured who said he didn't know whether he was in the body or not. all others (including John) seemed to have a rapture off of this earth (at least for a moment).
Also, although i deny a view that sees believers raptured to heaven while God judges the earth for 7 years (or whatever), you can't deny that 'the dead in Christ shall rise first, then those of us still alive will meet the Lord together IN THE AIR. and lo, we will be with Him forever." This also looks like a rapture.
finally, I like what bob Jones said when he was asked weather or not he believed in the rapture. He responded, "Sure do, just got raptured into his presence yesterday".
Who cares about the rapture..
"be holy, because I am holy" -Jesus
the saints are better equipped to live here on earth by having sound eschatology regarding the end times.
having a grasp of theology is a good thing. for leslie and i, our churches speak our theology every week through our liturgy. our liturgy is part of our worship. if you don't pay any mind to eschatology you probably don't pay any mind to justification, sanctification, and all the other massive theological themes in the Bible. i'm not saying you don't juan, just saying the much of modern christianity has rejected any sort of theological position or study for "live like Jesus now".
JoshP,
I think that was entirely my point..I just choose Jesus' words rather than my own.
we aren't chosing our own words and Jesus' words. if you believe the Bible is without error then it is all applicable, not only what Jesus spoke verbally. correct?
I usually try to persuade people that the rapture isn't going to happen. My only hangup on dismissing the rapture is 1 Thessalonians 4:17. It sounds like it has something to do with literally going up into the sky.
Besides that one verse, I don't see anything else. I've heard the argument that "air" and "cloud" mean something else. But it seems like people are forcing their own denial of the rapture on Scripture. So, I can't just throw out this idea.
I have yet to find an author/teacher who teaches both that heaven is coming to earth and that there is a rapture. But that just means that one group of people is talking to itself and the other group of people is talking to itself, and real dialogue is missing because the church isn't one body or very civil most of the time.
Josh R.,
I loved your final paragraph. So true. Very few people have honestly looked at both sides. Probably because when you do, they are both convincing and neither has easy answers. thanks for your post
i think there is a huge need for unity within the Church. i have been studying a lot of luther, calvin, zwingli and the early reformation leaders. those guys were giants of their time (and to this day) theologically speaking and God used them in awesome ways. they discussed and bent over backwards for unity. i think if we look back at their example it is a good place to start. do we confess the same things? you either have orthodoxy or liberalism. within Christianity, the two cannot exsist together. the return to our "roots" so to speak is the beginning of unity in my opinion. God used luther to blow the doors open to a better understanding of God, His grace and His substitutionary atonement for our sins. the only reason most of us sit in the churches we sit in is because of the reformers, through God's sovereignty and love.
so how can we be united? how can we be "The Church Militant" when much of "the church" is mired in anabaptist heresy? gnosticism? repackaged 60's liberalism with new graphics and a nice website? feeling and experience over substance?
let's discuss...
and then there was silence because the idea of true unity is not worth discussing...
Joshp.
I should have been more clear... God's word AKA. the Bible.
Honestly, I don't have any thoughts on the rapture or a rature... Recently, I've found that everyone just makes up their own theology anyhow :)
ones understanding of the end times effects how they live prior to (or leading up to) that time.
ignorning or not caring is way below you juan. you're a smart guy. i'd suggest looking into it.
the focus is on Christ's one coming, on the one resurrection of the dead, the one judgment, and a tension between Christ's kingdom having been
established, yet still to come when He comes. this seems to fit in
best with the classic amil position.
just my 2 cents.
THE BEST RAPTURE LOCATOR
Guess what. If you can figure out when the "sudden destruction" of wicked persons takes place in I Thess. 5:3 (and also when "death" is ended in I Cor. 15:54), you will know where to place the rapture on your prophecy chart because those passages talk about the "times and seasons" (and also the "when" and "then") of the rapture. Neat, huh? And if you would like to locate the ONE article that Ice, Jeffrey, Missler, Strandberg, Lindsey, LaHaye, Van Impe, Hagee, and Swaggart don't want you to read, visit the "Powered by Christ Ministries" site and click on "Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty" !
Religion is Manmade. Faith is personal. I have seen more splits from the faith by arguing about religion.
You can argue all you want, but in the end, only God knows.......
:D
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